which engine to default to post jade?

[dougwilson]

The issue has been brought up with the renaming of jade: if we have to change the default engine away from jade, which engine should it be? There are three main contenders, with, i.m.o. the main pro of each:

1. pug. pro: very similar language to jade
2. hbs. pro: this is an Express.js project
3. ejs. pro: it's a basic, flexible language
4. no defulat. pro: reduces reliance on external dependencies

Very old previous discussion: #47
Discussion on this in TC: https://youtu.be/bolB3vHBNK4 (it's the first topic)

Summary of votes from conversation below:

1. 1 (@jonathanong)
2. 2 (@dougwilson @joewagner)
3. 0
4. 4 (@ChiperSoft @hacksparrow @crandmck @gokaygurcan)

/cc @expressjs/express-tc

[jonathanong]

pug is jade, so i would say pug.

or... why even bother with a default engin?

[niftylettuce]

Nunjucks

1. pug

[dougwilson]

or... why even bother with a default engin?

good point. I added this as #4

pug is jade, so i would say pug.

well, pug is a new major version of jade, with a bunch of weird incompatibilities, file extension changes, and such. I understand it's just a renamed jade, but with all the changes it, at least to me when I switched, felt more like using a different templating language that just felt similar to jade.

[Twipped]

I agree with @jonathanong, don't set a default. Anything that is a default becomes an included dependency that cannot be opted out of. That's added weight that express doesn't need.

Pulling a number out of my ass here, but at best maybe 1 in 5 users will actually use whatever engine you pick.

At one time there was a discussion about leaving the view engine out of express entirely, making it an optional middleware. I still think that's the best direction.

[Twipped]

Sorry, I just realized this was the generator repo, not the express repo. That changes things a little...

The generator should prompt from a list of popular choices.

[crandmck]

I think we should either go with no default, or default to hbs, since it's an expressjs project. No default kind of makes sense, but might not serve totally new users well, since they would have no idea what to choose....

If we decide to change the generator to "no default", docs would still need to provide a "getting started" example that uses something, so it would probably be either hbs or pug (just as a concrete example).... but that's just an aside.

[hacksparrow]

I am also inclined towards #4.

[dougwilson]

So my thoughts on number 4:

I think having no default view engine seems good, because it means that people are picking their view engine and there will seem like less favoritism. On the other hand, most people I see who use the generator (just ones I see; I cannot speak for the greater usage) will almost immediately reach for res.render, which of course requires a view engine.

I really don't feel strongly either way, but if I were to pick, I'd pick to number 2.

I'll update the top with the current votes with names (so you can correct it or me if i had your vote wrong) un just a bit. I plan to give people time to respond, since this is a large change, and will close it with the resolution on 10/25 if there is no crazy objection and we'll simply go with whatever is the majority.

[crandmck]

Please add my vote for num 4.

[gokaygurcan]

Even though I like handlebars most in this list, I'd say #4. But then, I'm thinking about this: http://eng.localytics.com/exploring-cli-best-practices/

Every option that can have a default option should have a default option.

Btw, does my vote count? Or just TC? haha

[dougwilson]

@gokaygurcan everyone's vote counts :) I added you as #4 above; TC is not to make decisions in isolation, mainly to discuss issues where there does not seem to be a resolution, act as a tie breaker, etc.

[joewagner]

+1 for hbs

[dougwilson]

Ok, just wanted to provide an update for everyone subscribed: currently "no view engine" is the consensus.